Minutes OpenIRC 20120801

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19:59 < nickl> hello
20:00 <@gremid> hi hi
20:01 < nickl> hey Gregor
20:02 <@gremid> even as the person who is probably closest to greenwich at the moment, i still had to lookup the proper time. ;)
20:02 < nickl> heh
20:02 < nickl> did my e-mail of the agenda make it out? I sent it to all@interedition.eu
20:02 <@gremid> i got it
20:03 < nickl> cool, it didn't echo so wasn't sure
20:03 <@gremid> and given that i did not attend the last time, i felt particularly obligated to show up
20:03 < nickl> ah, well given that I volunteered to run the meeting, likewise :^)
20:03 <@gremid> anybody else there?
20:03 <@gremid> :-=
20:04 <@gremid> :-)
20:04  * gremid pokes _rhd 
20:04 < nickl> Tara is coming, I think
20:05 < _rhd> hi guys
20:05 < nickl> hey Ron
20:06 <@gremid> hey _rhd!
20:06 < _rhd> it seems it is pretty quiet in here
20:07 < nickl> yes, well
20:07 <@gremid> well, here in the uk you could not get the idea that is actually summer and you should not spend too much time indoors
20:08 < _rhd> it is raining in the netherlands at the moment :-)
20:08 <@gremid> :)
20:08 < nickl> we've been in the middle of a heatwave all summer.. very dry except for when it is severe thunder
20:09 <@gremid> i still remember the hot summers in indiana, though in contrast bloomington used to be quite humid
20:10 <@gremid> i'll escape to croatia for a week this month; should be better there
20:10 < nickl> ah, yes I will go to upstate NY for a couple of weeks in august
20:10 <@gremid> :)
20:11 <@_tla> i'm kind of here but am also in the middle of sophie's bedtime
20:11 < nickl> hey Tara
20:12 < nickl> ok well here's the agenda I sent out:
20:12 < nickl> 1. Debrief on DH2012 Bootcamp 2. Reports on ongoing development work 3. New business
20:12 < nickl> any ammendments?
20:12 <@_tla> i have some news on the google groups thing
20:12 <@_tla> so you can tack that on the end.
20:12 < nickl> ok that will be 3.1
20:12 < nickl> anyone else?
20:13 < nickl> ok then.. #1.. we had in person bootcamp at DH2012.. were any of us there? how did it go?
20:14  * gremid did not make it unfortunately; looks at _rhd 
20:15 <@_tla> i was there for a day, otherwise it was ronald, gertjan, marco, leif-joran, andrea, joris, i think
20:15 <@_tla> oh adn doug
20:15 < _rhd> I was there. People worked on different things so I can´t comment on all of it
20:16 < _rhd> I think Marco, Moritz and Troy work on the annotation server
20:16 <@_tla> (and moritz and troy, gosh look at all these people i forget)
20:16 < _rhd> I worked with Leif and Troy on testing CollateX
20:17 <@_tla> doug was keen to get us collaborating on a software tools review project, but we pretty much ran short of time before that happened.
20:18 < _rhd> yeah.. however before we did discuss all the tools or projects that people are working on/ are interested in.
20:18 <@gremid> was that one on the list: http://thepund.it/ ?
20:19 <@gremid> (was announced only recently, i think it also was mentioned on the interedition list)
20:20 < _rhd> I remember reading about on the mailing list, I don´t think it was discussed during the bootcamp. But I might misremember.
20:20 <@_tla> as far as i know it only came up in passing, as none of those present really knew much (or maybe andrea did, but if he discussed it i wasn't there.)
20:20 <@gremid> ok, just curious.
20:20 <@_tla> there was also some chatting to a mellon representative about possible funding schemes, but i think doug and joris and maybe gertjan would need to report on that.
20:21 <@_tla> so i guess that's really an agenda item for september.
20:22 <@_tla> (i have to disappear for 10-15m i think, sorry about that)
20:22 < nickl> well, in that case let's skip ahead to 3.1 if there's no objection
20:23 < nickl> oh sorry, you are leaving now
20:23 < nickl> nm :)
20:23 < nickl> um, any other thoughts on DH2012 Bootcamp? :)
20:24 < nickl> ok then .. #2 Reports on ongoing development work
20:25 < nickl> I can start by saying we're actively working on Juxta WS and Juxta Commons for NINES.. with a closed beta planned for the fall
20:26 < nickl> we've also been talking with the Modern Versionists Project about possible integration of Juxta into their technology stack
20:26 < _rhd> I spoke with Fotis of Textgrid during the bootcamp. He wants to send the output of CollateX to the Juxta WS to visualize them. Do you think such a setup would be possible?
20:27 < nickl> yes, I was working on it as The Hague, it was well underway after a couple days of hacking
20:28 < nickl> I'd be happy to share what I have on that.. wrote a Ruby wrapper around Juxta WS and was using that to write bindings
20:28 < nickl> between CollateX output and Juxta input
20:28 < _rhd> Ok. Thats great to hear. I expected as much.
20:29 < _rhd> Fotis wants to get some developers together during the last half of the year to better integrate CX into TextGrid. Using the Juxta WS for visualizing is on his wishlist.
20:30 < nickl> cool, well I'd be interested
20:30 < nickl> I'll also be at MLA
20:31 <@gremid> i  have not had the time over the last weeks to do much on the collation front. partly because i switched jobs (working in the industry since june), partly because of Faust-related work.
20:32 <@gremid> what i looked into were operational transforms, which is underlying collaborative editing environments like etherpad or google wave.
20:33 <@gremid> the basic problem is, how you describe concurrent edit operations on documents and resolve conflicts.
20:33 <@gremid> interestingly they do not take transpositions into account
20:34 <@gremid> but model any set of changes as insertions and retainment of characters
20:34 <@gremid> ran into that accidentally as i was setting up an etherpad instance for some dh colleagues
20:35 <@gremid> but it is quite interesting as _rhd and i are investigating a model for changes on manuscripts, how those can be encoded and how this all relates to automatic collation of documents
20:36 <@gremid> nothing to show yet as i am still experimenting with it
20:36 < _rhd> it is indeed interesting
20:36 < nickl> yeah
20:36 < _rhd> do they all use longest common subsequence?
20:37 <@gremid> that is the interesting part … they do not think of it as a collation problem
20:37 <@gremid> it is not: n document states; compute the differences and derive edit operations
20:38 <@gremid> but: n document transformations (aka. set of changes); derive a document state such that the "intent" of all editors is represented
20:38 < _rhd> ah I see
20:38 <@gremid> the trick is obviously in the conflict resolution mechanism
20:38 <@gremid> and it gets quite above my head at times
20:38 < _rhd> that probably because they can capture what a user did
20:39 <@gremid> but it is extremely interesting, not only because collaborative editing is such a cool app.
20:39 <@_tla> (back)
20:39 <@gremid> _rhd: right
20:42 < nickl> so by "intent" you mean.. what they changed in the context of what they saw when they changed it?
20:42 <@gremid> i do not really know yet ‚Ķ ;)
20:42 < nickl> heh ok
20:42 <@gremid> the idea is: you have a document reading "baseball"
20:42 <@gremid> one editor changes it into "basil", the other into "below"
20:43 <@gremid> your server gets both changesets
20:43 <@gremid> what is the resulting document, aka. what might be the "intended" "merge" of this
20:43 <@gremid> ether pad's definition of "common intent" will probably upset any philologist
20:43 < nickl> ah so some sort of framing of the changes based on timestamps
20:44 <@gremid> yes
20:44 <@gremid> with added problem, that in a distributed environment you cannot use conflict resolution via distributed clocks
20:45 <@gremid> because that would mean that users would have to stop editing while others are
20:45 <@gremid> it is more like: i get different change sets on the server, try to cope with them without having time-based causality
20:46 <@gremid> aka. we do not know whether "basil" was causing "below" or the other way around
20:46 <@gremid> because both users edited "baseball" in parallel
20:46 <@gremid> without blocking each other
20:47 <@gremid> (etherpad resolves the concurrent edit to "besiow" :S )
20:47 < _rhd> one might wonder whether a computer can solve the case where two users concurrently are editing the same word
20:48 <@gremid> it is strange, isn't it?
20:48 <@gremid> the same problem underlies all collaborative tools like e.g. google docs
20:49 < _rhd> well in google docs you can see where the other users cursors are
20:49 <@gremid> anybody ever ran into the problem of 2 users editing the same word?
20:49 < nickl> if it were a repo, you'd need to merge the changes manually
20:49 < _rhd> so to make into a social problem
20:49 < _rhd> to = they
20:51 <@gremid> anyways, i am not sure where this leads me, but it is fun.
20:52 <@_tla> i spent most of july preparing for DH, so not really anything new to report on the tools front for me.
20:53 <@_tla> am in this constant state of being about 80% ready to make the tools public, but lacking time to get it finished, and then the goalposts move again :/
20:53 <@_tla> (this is of course the stemmatology stuff i've been hacking on.)
20:55 < _rhd> I have been testing the development version of CX with a number of developers. Trying it on their use cases, installing it on their laptops and on their servers.
20:57 < _rhd> Hopefully I can do a need release soon, but it depends on the feedback that I receive.
20:58 < _rhd> need = real
20:59 < nickl> ok .. any more thoughts on recent dev efforts?
21:00 < nickl> ok , next is an update on google groups from Tara
21:00 <@_tla> so basically google came through and gave us the apps for education access
21:01 <@_tla> which means that we can have up to 100 user accounts (if anyone really wants a new email address) but, more importantly in my view, we can have newsgroups for mailing lists.
21:01 <@_tla> with all the archival & subscription management functionality that implies.
21:02 <@_tla> so. we have all@interedition, which really seems to be 'hackers@interedition'
21:02 <@_tla> which i'm in the process of converting to a google group (same address, just different backend).
21:03 <@_tla> and mostly i'm just putting it out there that we have google apps at our disposal on the domain now.
21:03 < nickl> cool, will that help with open social related development?
21:03 <@_tla> and if we want mailing lists / newsgroups with more specific purposes, we can go crazy.
21:04 <@_tla> (e.g. collatex-announce might be a popular one for non-hackers like fotis to sign up to)
21:04 <@_tla> nickl: i am not aware of any integration between google apps & opensocial. but i haven't thought of looking.
21:05 < _rhd> cool. Thanks for putting the effort into this.
21:06 < nickl> ok, any other business?
21:06 <@_tla> guess someone should remind marco that he's signed up to chair nxt month :)
21:07 < nickl> Our next meeting will be Sept 1st.. I will post minutes of this meeting to interedition wiki
21:07 <@_tla> er
21:08 <@_tla> by normal rules it would be sept 5
21:08 <@_tla> (first wednesday)
21:08 < nickl> ah thanks
21:08 < nickl> I can write Marco too
21:09 <@_tla> thanks!
21:09 < nickl> ok, motion to close?
21:09 <@gremid> +1
21:09 <@_tla> +1
21:09 <@gremid> (thanks everybody!)
21:09 < nickl> meeting is closed :)
21:10 <@gremid> (special thanks to nick for chairing)
21:10 < nickl> thanks, have a good rest of summer everyone